Curse

cataphract · Apr 14, 2011, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Bassmas post Reverend Dr quoted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassma

I remember the good old days when GW was new and nobody tried to tell you what to do or how to play.

Reverend Dr being a condescending douche:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When was that? I'm pretty sure this started the day that GW was released. Take off the nostalgia glasses.

Me siding with Bassma because I was there and I saw that what Bassma said was true:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

I'm not wearing any and still manage to recollect that ancient time Bassma speaks of.

The point I think Bassma was trying to make is this: In those early days no one told anyone how to play. Somewhat experienced players were a lot more friendlier and guided and suggested how to improve your character and his skillbar. Remember that they too were still discovering the game, its mechanics and skills. While there may have been a douche in Reverend Dr's early play days, that would most likely be an isolated incident. I mean, between a couple of million players you're bound to find several thousand douches, amirite?

Bed time. srsly

Sk8tborderx · Apr 14, 2011, 08:27 PM // 20:27

That attitude was prevalent early on, you just didn't see it unless you were in a serious PvP guild, or you were in ToPK. GW is also just more competitive by design then most other games, it was designed to be an e-sport. There were also the world championships which paid RL money. Serious guilds had that attitude because they had a reason to want to win beyond some colorful pixels. Plus some people are just control freaks.

You should give the GvG community another chance, they are more helpful then ever, doing whatever they can to get new players to compete.

Reverend Dr · Apr 14, 2011, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Oh look a throwaway sentence gets quoted and the meat of my post ignored

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The base argument for JQ/FA/RA/AB not being PvP is based around team synergy. Team synergy is the heart of PvP in Guild Wars and it is just not possible with a random team formation that is a part of those arenas.

As far as not being forced to run one build (aka not being a unique snowflake) look at it from the other perspective. According to your argument it is not okay for 7 people to ask you to bring a build, but it is ok for one person (you) to make those 7 people change their team build. If you are joining 7 other people are you asking to join and making demands of them is awfully selfish.

Running standard meta builds is largely about efficiency. Most "new" builds don't work out. Usually the problem lies at the core of the build, but even when it doesn't new builds must be finely tuned before they can perform at great efficiency. It takes time for new builds to be fine tuned enough to be as effective as existing builds; during that adjustment time there is going to be a lot of losses and no one like losing. With less players it takes longer to form teams and it takes longer to get matches so this loss time is going to eat up a much larger part of playtime. Is it really that hard to understand that most players don't want to spend hours and hours testing a new build where most likely they are going to end up losing all the time?

Aside from that the #1 indicator of success in PvP is attitude. With that type of attitude you are just not going to get anywhere.

"Hey guys I would like to learn to play PvP, can you help?" <- awesome attitude

"Hey guys I don't like this bar, I am going to run something else instead." <- terrible attitude

"Hey guys I don't like this bar, do we have time to discuss options?" <- awesome attitude

"Hey guys the problem is all your fault for being elitists" <- terrible attitude

*Listen to ideas, take them constructively* <- awesome attitude

*Listen to ideas, ignore them without trying to understand anything* <- terrible attitude

Jacobbs · Apr 15, 2011, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

The point I think Bassma was trying to make is this: In those early days no one told anyone how to play. Somewhat experienced players were a lot more friendlier and guided and suggested how to improve your character and his skillbar. Remember that they too were still discovering the game, its mechanics and skills. While there may have been a douche in Reverend Dr's early play days, that would most likely be an isolated incident. I mean, between a couple of million players you're bound to find several thousand douches, amirite?

Bed time. srsly

I'd argue that's because no one really knew how to play. If everyone's a noob, there can't be elitists.

However, I find the whole shunning of elitists pretty interesting. I'm sure you'd flaunt your experience at your job on an application. Businesses only accept and hire "elite" people (ideally), that's how life works. Either you're good, and you are in, or you are not and either work on it, complain about it, or go home.

While GW is a game, and it should be fun and "elitist free", the reality is that some people take this game more seriously than others. If you want to play a serious game type, it's expected that you have a serious attitude.

While I'm not trying to dish on you personally, it just seems like a lot of people dismiss PvP because they are not up to par and go ahead and point the finger at "elitists". Guild Wars flipped the MMO model around when it first came out. It put the focus on PLAYER development over CHARACTER development. With each successive release of campaigns, it's slowly turned into a weird ass in between. At the end of the day, there are elitists in both game-types, and they both work the same way: if you don't cut it, go home and try again.

The difference between PvP and PvE (so far) is that in PvE, failure has largely been mitigated by PvE skills, PvE items, and heroes. In PvP, you are afforded no such luxury.

I've had a discussion about this before here (really old thread):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10434502

Rob Roy The Divine · Apr 15, 2011, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassma

A typical answer of an elitist, denial is the first sign of the problem.

It is? Could have fooled me then saying RA, FA and JQ are "organized" or are you of the elitist type that doesn't consider anything beyond GvG as PVP?

By your very own statements you have proven yourself to be elitist.

yea, I'm totally an elitist. even my guild is for elitists...

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/n...ght=%5BBAAA%5D

ohwait...

on topic. Definitely considering setting [BAAA] back up again, just gonna wait till i get all my uni work out the way first, then the PvE resurrection train is on it's way :3

Missing HB · Apr 15, 2011, 11:28 AM // 11:28

You know , elitist is a big word.... I thought GW elitism was one of the worse ( especially considering HA part , not really about GvG) , but that was until i played starcraft 2. Really , if people get angry just because they get called " noob " or " go back to PvE " i advice to chat in sc2 channels and have fun....( Most likely kids completly clueless spamming you about your league rank , relating adventures with your parents, insulting for no reason ( nothing even close to " stfu " or " noob " ),.....)
Compared to that , i think that GW community was still ok to be honest and changed my mind a lot ....

Back on topic , i think then there should be a way to help people improving better. Isle of nameless has potential , maybe some series of quests there could help ( i.e interupt master of xx 3 times , deal target 500 damage in 3 sec , survive to x chars for 20 sec , etc....)

Killed u man · Apr 15, 2011, 12:44 PM // 12:44

I don't see why you would ever want to chat in SC2. Chatting in a MMO and in a RTS are 2 completely different things. For starters, in an RPG, a virtual world gets created to escape in from real life, and as such social behaviour is to be expected, if even to trade items and/or ask for information.

This is why RPG's (MMO obv) have the biggest problem with addicted kids/adults, because living (and thus socializing) in the virtual world is such a large part of the experience.

In SC2 people are very elitist, but there are several reasons why it doesn't really matter:

- They usually are, in fact, the better player, as unlike in GW, you can clearly distinguish one player from the other based on their skill. Simply put: Let them 1v1 and the best player will win the majority of the matches.

- It doesn't hurt anyone. If you're one of those players that gets upset when called out over an online game, you probably shouldn't be playing online anyways, but first get your real life straightened out by going to a shrink or something. Words (real life is something different) should not hurt over the internet, if they do it's you who needs to change, not the people throwing them. -Not playing the devil's advocate here, as I obviously don't see the point in using "fcuk" every second sentence, but I rarely (if at all) get offended by online chatter.

In GW, elitist has a direct impact on the game experience, which is people not getting accepted in groups, etc etc. But again, as said before, it's not as bad as the couple of carebears here make it out to be. As pointed out by Reverent and Lemming, it's not the communities fault not every individual gets picked up, but rather those individuals themselves who believe everything and everyone should bend around their will.

cantalus · Apr 15, 2011, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

This is why RPG's (MMO obv) - It doesn't hurt anyone. If you're one of those players that gets upset when called out over an online game, you probably shouldn't be playing online anyways, but first get your real life straightened out by going to a shrink or something. Words (real life is something different) should not hurt over the internet, if they do it's you who needs to change, not the people throwing them. -Not playing the devil's advocate here, as I obviously don't see the point in using "fcuk" every second sentence, but I rarely (if at all) get offended by online chatter.

yeah, or if you're one of those players that screams in local "uninstall" if you lose, or squeals on vent, hmmm yes, if you're one of those players ^^

yes, maybe that kinda player should give advice about straightening their lives out, oh yes.....ah the advice of children, amusing

Killed u man · Apr 15, 2011, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by cantalus

yeah, or if you're one of those players that screams in local "uninstall" if you lose, or squeals on vent, hmmm yes, if you're one of those players ^^

yes, maybe that kinda player should give advice about straightening their lives out, oh yes.....ah the advice of children, amusing

I rarely every rage at people in a serious matter: "Uninstall", I do often use it as a joke: "Lol, uninstall", with a big fat wink following it.

I do get frustrated when playing in RA, and bad players (read: PvE'ers who don't know what they're doing) refuse any form of communication, and actually start shouting at the rest of the team.

The only times when I shout: "Go back to PvE" are those occassions when people reach the level of bad, and an unwillingness to listen, they simply do not belong in a team game. If then they start flaming me (for being bad), I usually do go all-out on them.

Just yesterday, I had this PvE warrior with Charge (no biggy, just a new player), and as I pointed out he had a bad bar (which is the truth, no more, no less), he replied with: "Stfu". Good enough for me, we went in, and he got hexed up with SS and Insidious. Needless to say, my one veil wasn't enough to keep him clean, and thus he killed himself in a matter of seconds, initiating a flamefest from his side calling me a "retarded monk" telling me to "stop suck" and other things.

Again, people with that attitude, no matter how much you want to stick up for them, do not belong in PvP. Either they stick to PvE, or they mature another year or 5, and then try again, but they simply do not belong in competitive PvP.

Reverend Dr · Apr 15, 2011, 11:19 PM // 23:19

It amazes me at how many non-PvP'ers stick with the "elitist" theory of pvp.

I understand where it comes from: frustration. PvP is not PvE, in PvE there is one bar that never changes and everyone can win at PvE every time they enter. Simply not true for PvP. Half the teams that enter must lose and there is no set bar other than the ability of the opposing team; as such it is necessary to make your own team as efficient as possible. This creates a very different dynamic when selecting and forming groups.

First ventures into anything are usually PuG's. This is simply a practical matter. It is also not unexpected that a PvP PuG would be particularly harsh and unaccepting. After seeing this a couple of times and perhaps seeing other people's posts on the subject, it understandable how the "all PvP players are elitist jerkoffs" attitude emerges. To me its just amazing at how once this attitude is adopted that people will go out of their way to discredit or ignore anything to the contrary.

Allow me to propose a different theory. Since PvP is based around creating the most effective team, which includes teamwork and team familiarity which cannot exist in a PuG environment, the more adept PvP players do not ever go into the PuG environment and instead form groups based upon guild/alliance/friend list. The only people that exist in the PuG environment were the ones that are so harsh, abrasive, or otherwise undesirable that they have no other recourse but to exist in the PuG environment. "The PuG environment is filled with the jerkoffs that have been kicked out of all the other circles of PvP players."

It still just amazes me at the number of people that do not in any way attempt to understand the PvP environment or the people that participate in it. Whether or not it is justified, there are certainly reasons that a particular community ends up in its current state. Not even attempting to understand those reasons before criticizing the result is ignorant. But furthermore dismissing anyone that speaks contrary to this "elitist" theory as being an elitist themselves and thus not worthy of being listen to, is even more ignorant.

To tie this back to the original purpose of the thread: To enjoy PvE is perfectly ok. To not enjoy the current incarnation of PvP is perfectly ok. To not enjoy PvP in any format is ok. But if someone is not ever going to enjoy PvP (which is ok) and subscribes exclusively and irrefutably to an "elitist" theory, then being in such a discussion here serves no point (unless the point is to troll, in which case hypocrisy is present). Right now Guru is reaching out to the community to include new and old players in PvP. Let them. See for yourself what the real community and PvP is like for yourself. If this ends up being something you don't want to be a part of, that's fine, but see for yourself rather than listening to "elitist" arguments that are based out of frustration and ignorance.

As an anecdote when #buildwars and #gwgpickup were started I participated in several PuG GvG's. Technically I do have top 20 experience as monk, but that was back during Prophecies. Boon protting at a very high level was quite demanding, but boot protting at an acceptable level was quite easy. Even then the skill level of the general playerbase was far lower, so to excel not nearly as much skill was required as current day. So with "top 20 experience" I was put on prot monk. I'd like to think of myself as knowledgeable and I do tend to 'know' what to do, but actually performing in battle is a far different story. Yet these groups 'put up with' my poor performance and there was never bad feelings or any of the "elitist" mindset. Instead we all generally enjoyed ourselves and had a good time.

*lemming* · Apr 16, 2011, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Please remove Bassma from this thread. He is in no way contributing positively (infact his desire is quite the opposite) and is instead undermining the original intent of this thread and of the new Guru outreaches. This degree of ignoring what is being said and instead lashing out at the people posting is well beyond absurdity.

Indeed.

I wish I had done this before it got out of hand.

urania · Apr 16, 2011, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

It amazes me at how many non-PvP'ers stick with the "elitist" theory of pvp.

it amazes me you bother explaining the whole 'deal' behind it.

in a nutshell, i'm all for giving helpful advice and tips on how and what to play when it comes to nablets (and i did so in the past when the player would actually show signs of trying to improve and ADMITTING they were nab)...but since i mostly come across scrubs and wanna-bes and general baddies beyond any hopes of improving, i just trash the hell out of them if they start an argument. or screw up my team, for that matter.

on a side note, another contributing factor to an increasingly harder transition form pve to pvp is the fact pve had become a LOT easier to play than it used to be.

Yichi · Apr 16, 2011, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

This is probably 4 years too late but I fully support it still. ^_^

I also just want to emphasize the part about PMing players you see on obs mode. Contrary to the popular belief of PvPers being super elitist, I promise that there are a ton of people who will be more than willing to help out, answer questions, guest for you, etc. if you PM them. I know that myself and a lot of people in my guild would be more than willing to answer questions and guest for anybody, and the same goes for a large majority of top players in general.

This, although I agree in it probably being too late.

Jacobbs · Apr 17, 2011, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

it amazes me you bother explaining the whole 'deal' behind it.

in a nutshell, i'm all for giving helpful advice and tips on how and what to play when it comes to nablets (and i did so in the past when the player would actually show signs of trying to improve and ADMITTING they were nab)...but since i mostly come across scrubs and wanna-bes and general baddies beyond any hopes of improving, i just trash the hell out of them if they start an argument. or screw up my team, for that matter.

on a side note, another contributing factor to an increasingly harder transition form pve to pvp is the fact pve had become a LOT easier to play than it used to be.

You're right, the gap between PvP and PvE is larger than ever. And it's not just that some skills function differently. As I point out, heroes, pve skills, and pve items increase the rift exponentially.

If you take a look at most "high-end" pve today, a lot of it is based either heavily on gimmick mechanics or PvE skills (generally a combination of both). This doesn't necessarily encourage the development of skill sets that PvP in this game demands. The differences between Factions and Nightfall (at each of their own releases) demonstrates this issue is structural. Factions encouraged PvP (albeit on a less coordinated level, AB JQ FA, etc) while Nightfall heavily focused on the PvE experience. Additionally, Nightfall added permanent PvE skills to the game (Capture Signets are by definition pve only skills, and the Celestial skills in factions only lasted for the duration of the mission). These skills were introduced June 15, 2007. On May 22, 2008 the skill lists were split, introducing PvP versions of skills. There are very few PvP only skills, and most of the PvP only skills are monster skills. The introduction of GWEN did not help matters, introducing yet even more PvE only skills (a lot of them fairly powerful). I play plenty of PvE now, and it is astounding to me how ineffective some bars are. Some PvE bars are effective (indeed, very effective) but rely on PvE skills and PvE items (see all the speed clearing builds basically built around the assumption that a "con set" will be in play). This does not help the transition, and in fact, discourages exploration of PvP as a game type. I would say those that take the "but there are elitists and assholes" line of argument are forgetting another major hurdle to the development of a vibrant GvG community.

With the recent introduction of full hero parties, not only are PvE players discouraged from developing the skill sets that GvG demands (maximization of utility, efficiency, etc), but they are also discouraged from playing the game with other people. In effect, by allowing players to rely on heroes, three things are happening.

1) Heroes are good at certain things that most players are not good at (interrupting being the major example). This sets up (imo) unrealistic expectations for other players. Granted, there are excellent disruption players (I've played enough GvG to see really good mesmers and rangers at work), but the frequency of those players is fairly low.

2) Players no longer possess the capacity to play with others. Increasingly, I find that trying to form groups in PvE is futile, as most people lack the communication and leadership skills required to run even basic PvE builds in some coordinated and effective manner (not to mention the builds are fairly lacklustre in the first place). Of course, this is much less a problem in guild or alliance environments.

3) There is no player development. The key benefit to playing with others, and especially those you look up to, is that they can shed light on how you can improve. This is the essence of player development, and is exactly how GvG will continue to thrive. I've gotten my ass busted (and I still remember this) for asking why we have to kill the body guard first in GvG before the Guild Lord. I didn't know better, and then I did. Without people telling you how you're doing badly, you will only pick up on such things much later. Compounded with problem number 2 and the problem of lowered challenge in PvE (ie, the false sense of skill), is it really a wonder the PvP community has dwindled?

The structural barrier to development of the PvP community (in particular, heavily competitive GvG) has been fully realized. The climate of GvG and in general pvp today is a result of this structural transition barrier.

Woodelf Archer · Apr 17, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

While I wholeheartedly agree with what OP is saying, I feel that getting PvE orientated players to play is not the only problem.

I played GvG years ago at a variety of ranks and loved it, yet today there seems to be no guilds catering for players who do have GvG experience yet are just average players like myself. Every guild I join are "new-comers" with great motivation but little knowledge of what they are doing.(I'm not talking these people down btw, I've been around long enough to know many of these with decent practice and games, will become great players)
Every other guild I see recruiting are housing "big-name" players who's skills and experience far exceeds my own and simply put, I'd be wasting my time (and theirs) asking to join.

Perhaps it's just a result of the game being around for so long, but there seems a huge gap in the gvg playerbase. I keep joining the various pvp guilds I see recruiting in hope of meeting similar players, yet I'm starting to think the "middle ground" has completely disappeared.

Jacobbs · Apr 17, 2011, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodelf Archer

While I wholeheartedly agree with what OP is saying, I feel that getting PvE orientated players to play is not the only problem.

I played GvG years ago at a variety of ranks and loved it, yet today there seems to be no guilds catering for players who do have GvG experience yet are just average players like myself. Every guild I join are "new-comers" with great motivation but little knowledge of what they are doing.(I'm not talking these people down btw, I've been around long enough to know many of these with decent practice and games, will become great players)
Every other guild I see recruiting are housing "big-name" players who's skills and experience far exceeds my own and simply put, I'd be wasting my time (and theirs) asking to join.

Perhaps it's just a result of the game being around for so long, but there seems a huge gap in the gvg playerbase. I keep joining the various pvp guilds I see recruiting in hope of meeting similar players, yet I'm starting to think the "middle ground" has completely disappeared.

The mentor program run out of QQ boards was an attempt to fix this. You're right though, in that there's no bridge from clueless -> top of the ladder.

Quite simply, there is no longer a vibrant mid-range GvG community. I think some of the problems I've articulated above contribute heavily to this gap.

enter_the_zone · Apr 17, 2011, 09:45 PM // 21:45

PvP has one big problem that can't really be solved, and that's wait times. JQ is frustrating enough, but trying to assemble an organised team just takes too long. Frankly, PVP is at least 70% waiting, either for a match or while the team forms, and that's just too long and too boring. Essentially, PVP is tldr.

Missing HB · Apr 18, 2011, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

PvP has one big problem that can't really be solved, and that's wait times. JQ is frustrating enough, but trying to assemble an organised team just takes too long. Frankly, PVP is at least 70% waiting, either for a match or while the team forms, and that's just too long and too boring. Essentially, PVP is tldr.

That's partially right. The main reason of this is players behaviour. You know , i would probably not care waiting 1 hour to form if i was sure people won't all leave after 1 lose...
HA has probably one of the worst mentality and that's also leading to the same problem for GvG when you play with HA'ers. People instant ragequitting when someone dies in UW , people joining group whereas they only have 20mn to play , people afking without saying anything . And you know , most of time , 1 leave = all party leaves.....( and that concerns especially high ranked teams , aka r11+...)

So that's why there isn't mid range GvG'ers ....It's either beginners that won't especially leave since they're discovering , either top players that play GvG for long... Mid range would be HA'ers but it's pointless playing with them...

urania · Apr 18, 2011, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodelf Archer

While I wholeheartedly agree with what OP is saying, I feel that getting PvE orientated players to play is not the only problem.

I played GvG years ago at a variety of ranks and loved it, yet today there seems to be no guilds catering for players who do have GvG experience yet are just average players like myself. Every guild I join are "new-comers" with great motivation but little knowledge of what they are doing.(I'm not talking these people down btw, I've been around long enough to know many of these with decent practice and games, will become great players)
Every other guild I see recruiting are housing "big-name" players who's skills and experience far exceeds my own and simply put, I'd be wasting my time (and theirs) asking to join.

Perhaps it's just a result of the game being around for so long, but there seems a huge gap in the gvg playerbase. I keep joining the various pvp guilds I see recruiting in hope of meeting similar players, yet I'm starting to think the "middle ground" has completely disappeared.

yes, its another known problem that there is few to no middle gvg experience guilds, or player base, for that record. cba to discuss the reasons behind that thou, it has been done before too many times already.

*lemming* · Apr 18, 2011, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Wait times for matches are a symptom, not an inherent problem.

As for wait times imposed by players, that's a function of their interest. It's most evident with PvE guilds trying to dabble with any kind of PvP format - they go in with minimal prepwork and take forever to roll anything. In my experience, people are a lot more willing to play more when it takes 5 mins instead of 30 mins for initial setup.